The Deconstruction of the Faith

Pastor Mike will be speaking on The Deconstruction of the Faith.

Hello and welcome to the Hope Worth Having podcast. I’m Eli Torres and I am here with Pastor Mike Sanders of the Open Door Church. We are glad to have you join us here. Today we are going to be talking about a challenging topic, one that’s affecting a lot of young Christians, a lotta young believers, and it is deconstructionism or deconstructing the faith.

And I’m going to start by defining it and getting a clear -cut definition of the deconstruction movement. It’s kind of hard because it’s a tricky, constantly moving thing, but the working definition we’re going to use is the Deconstruction Movement is a phenomenon within American evangelicalism in which Christians rethink their faith and jettison get rid of previously held beliefs, sometimes to the point of no longer identifying as Christians at all.

So that’s going to be our kind of our working definition of that for anyone of you that have never heard of it. I just wanted to give that definition. And this movement is taking Christendom by storm.

There’s a lot of Christian musicians and influencers that are publicly deconstructing their faith and they have a lot of followers, so this could be something that’s really dangerous. So with that definition out of the way, I kind of want to start with a controversial opinion.

Yeah. It seems to me that at the root of the movement, that it’s not all that bad, and by that I mean examining your faith, but that part of it isn’t bad. What are your initial thoughts? Well, as I was listening to your definition my first thought obviously was well this has been going on for a long time in that Christians especially young Christians new Christians have always been kind of deconstructing their faith relating to the traditions of the faith and that we think about like back in the 70s the Jesus movement yeah all right and I mean I was just a little guy so but just reading history and things like that.

That was a lot about deconstructing some of the traditions of what people believe. So I think that young people go through this. It’s normal, it’s natural, and it is healthy. Kind of like what you said.

It helps us get back to what is in the Word of God and what’s essential and non -essential. Yeah, so I want to follow that with another question, is there a way to examine your beliefs without falling away?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think first of all, we’re called to examin ourselves every time we take the Lord’s Supper. And so, if examining ourselves would lead to a lack of faith, then I don’t think the Lord would have instructed us to do that.

But I that examination is healthy and there’s not enough of it. And I think that’s why a lot of children grow up in the church and they grow in faith, but because there’s no examination of the authenticity of their faith that they drift away.

So I think it’s good and healthy and I believe that you can examine without leading to no faith. In this deconstruction movement, they would claim that a lot of biblical figures have deconstructed their faith and I want to get your opinion here on this they say that even Jesus was a deconstructionist they quote John 2 where Jesus tells the religious leaders to tear down the temple they said he’s wanting for believers to even at that point to deconstruct their faithful how would you tackle that yeah I think it’s I think that Jesus that’s the power of the map gospel of Matthew is That the first six chapters Jesus is challenging the traditions of The Pharisees We remember that the Pharises added over 600 extra rules on top of a Bible and you know, I tell people I’m just trying to keep up with the top ten much less 600 plus rules, so it was good.

Jesus calls us especially in Matthew 5 you know he’s he will often use this phraseology he’ll say you say this but this is what the Bible says okay and again it’s a challenging to their traditions yeah that are added on top of the bible now we’re not saying all traditions are bad we just saying that they need to be examined and every culture and generation may develop different traditions that help them to follow the Bible yeah yeah I think that’s an important thing to constantly be checking and see if this is just man -made or is this what God truly wanted for the church and that is important I think to grow in our faith and what we’re called to I believe so nailing down a particular age group is problematic because there isn’t one generation that has kind of deconstruction although there is one group that is deconstructing at a faster rate than any other quote -unquote Christian group and that’s evangelical Christians and among evangelicals it’s the the believers who don’t attend church so they would classify themselves to be evangelical but they haven’t been a part of a body they, haven t been going to church.

Why do you think this demographic in particular is falling to this worldview? Yeah well again I hate to so trite and maybe blunt but first of all let’s just get to the core of it that some people aren’t even saved they have just grown up and in a church religious setting and they have no passion for God they, have, no desire for God, they.

Have no interest for god yeah okay and they’ve never been born again and I’ve taught on Sunday about receiving the Holy Spirit as authentic authentication of your faith and so that’s where some of these people are and and they’re experiencing that and so I the old preacher Adrian Rogers out of Memphis Tennessee Southern Baptist used to say that the faith that fizzles in the end was flawed from the beginning okay yeah and So if we believe and I do believe in the perseverance of the Saints and i believe that if you are truly born again that you will endure for Christ and you It’s not a priority in their life.

Yeah, and it’s because that When you’re young a you are idealistic and be You believe your well, I would say you were independent. Okay, you independent in your faith You don’t really need but the older you get you realize you know man’s an island unto himself and that you need the support of a community of believers and That it is more than just the habit of going It’s that you’re coming together to not only support each other but to worship God corporately and to be a blessing Yeah, I think to your first point of you know people not actually being what they say I hear a lot of people say well, i don’t go to church anymore.

I’m a Christian Yeah I don’ t go and I say, well what makes you a christian? Well grandma used to take me Yes, oh, you, know I I was baptized or I did this or that and i think people miss what it truly means to be genuinely saved how would you articulate what it means to be genuinely safe well to obviously have a real relationship with Christ and that is acknowledging that we are sinners you know this generation has been praised and doted over so much that it’s hard for them to believe they’re lost and so when we come in with the gospel that gives the bad news first and That is, we’re all sinners in need of a Savior.

It’s shocking to them and insulting. And so that’s where we got to get to first, is that I’m a sinner in the need of the Savior, and then here’s the remedy. Christ came and lived a sinless life. He was qualified to go to the cross, die for our sins.

He took God’s wrath and punishment for sin. And we are called to believe that. We’re called believe personally. and then we need to call upon the Lord to you know have him forgive us and to help us through the power of the Spirit to be born again yeah and as I you know look through some of these deconstructionists if you go on YouTube you can watch hours and hours of people talking about deconstructing their faith and some them they they talked about how they experienced Christ that they had a relationship but then they they fell away or they weren’t drawn to it the way they felt in the beginning yeah what do you think leads to that to someone that you know genuinely believes and then there they’re just like it’s it doesn’t have the allure that it once had yeah so just two tracks on that first of all it is possible to be backslidden it’ s possible to go through different seasons of your faith where it s kind of like I tell people like a marriage or like uh your relationships or even your workplace where you’re working at you know you were super excited that first week and you jumped out of bed you showed up to work 20 minutes early but now we’re five years into this and your not sure if it’s the right thing or not and so I think we all go through those seasons and our relationships and certainly with our relationship with the Lord and that we need renewal we to be revived We need to kind of spark that energy that we once had, and that comes in going through our walk with the Lord.

But remember this, in relating to all that I’ve just said, is that it’s okay to lament. It’s OK to mourn. It is OK question. It it OK doubt. It OK go through a season where you might even struggle. and but all this is about God and his formation of you spiritually as a person who follows Christ and if we think that we’re gonna live in fifth gear and we we always gonna to live on the mountain and everything’s gonna be wonderful and it’s going to be a utopia experience being a believer we are being misled.

Now the second thing is this, is that some people were born into what I would call a pseudo relationship with God through emotionalism. All right, and they were moved emotionally to believe, they removed emotionally, to be a follower of Christ, but they would never truly born again.

And so Spurgeon talks about this a lot in his sermons about emotional ism that many have started on the journey of faith born out of emotionalism and then it kind of failed in the end and so I think that that’s some of it as well is that we need to get back to the Spirit of God drawing us and being convicted by the spirit and being called by The Spirit and in responding and repentance and faith.

Yeah I think to your point again that you know it’s not always we’re gonna be in this Go get it all the time Mode, you know, it’s not gonna be all that But when you’re struggling, I think don’t struggle alone, you now reach out to other believers other strong men and women of the faith because isolation kind of Helps to push you away then to draw you closer to God.

Would you agree with that? How would you? Oh, absolutely that’s why the narrative of a kovat era of you know lock the doors and close the blinds and stay away from people is not biblical now again we have to be careful and cautious and we all have different health challenges but God has not called us to be isolated he’s called to us be connected and so we have defined whether that’s in small groups or it’s and Bible studies or you know worship corporate worship together hey we gotta we got to Be together because we need one another so I agree a hundred percent.

Yeah, I think another interesting part is The the stats that Barna put out here and the last couple years. They said that 17% of professing Christians Actually held a biblical worldview by that. I’ll give you a few of these It says 61 percent of Christians agree with the idea rooted in the views of new spiritualism so that you can pray to God despite your religion.

So you pray to Buddha or whomever and it gets to the one God. So a lot of Christians, that’s a huge part of people who claim to be Christians would say, pray whoever and makes it to the One True God?

Yeah, so it’s just pluralism and we live in a culture where nobody wants to be exclusive. Nobody wants to be saying, hey, Jesus is the only way. So this new generation, again, wants include everybody on the journey.

But Jesus said that there’s a narrow way and there is a broad way, and Jesus says, I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father. The Gospel is inclusive in that it is inviting all, but it’s exclusive that it is only salvation comes to those who believe in Christ and yeah there’s no way that you can pray to another God and think that your praying to the true God yeah yeah I think it’s interesting too that you know Christianity kind of gets the blame of being exclusive but every religion you believe it it exclusive in some parameters you there’s if you believe in Islam right it’s exclusive to every other religion right whatever religion I think Christianity gets the the brunt of it like you guys don’t want us right where every other a religion is welcoming kind of but I think you hit it right on the head we’re inclusive and that Christ calls all people doesn’t matter race anything like that yeah but Jesus is the only way right One stat that stuck out to me was the view of the Holy Spirit that believers had, a lot of them believe that he’s simply a force, he is the magical force that God sends out, and that’s all.

How would you describe who the holy spirit is and the work of that holy Spirit? Well, I would describe the whole spirit as God, the third person of a triune God. We have God the Father, God, the Son, and God the Spirit.

We believe the Godhead is three but one and the spirit of God was given to us as believers as a gift from the father and son and that he is the manifestation of Gods presence on this earth and every good work in me and through me as a believer is the result of the Spirit of God and so again it’s not an emotion, it is not a feeling, it not that we don’t have emotions and feelings but that’s not the crux of a work of Spirit, its not movement, some kind of spirit force but rather he is the third person of the Godhead.

That’s well said. So again, part of the deconstruction movement is theology. How would you say our theology or our worldview affects our walk with Christ or maturity in our faith? Well, what you believe affects every aspect of your life, and so the Bible teaches us as a person thanks, so is he, And so we got to remember that the mind is called to be renewed and what is happening is so many people are letting the world disciple them or as I said Sunday to the church they’re letting devil disciple their children and they use all the worldly means that are out there to disciple the children.

And we wonder what happened to my kids? Where did I go wrong? I get asked that question a lot by moms and dads. look you got to realize that God is calling us to renew the mind and so emotionalism concert style churches that are built on whipping everybody up in a frenzy and then getting them to emotionally respond is only gonna last a little bit of time it’s not gonna be forever and eventually the struggles of life, the challenges of life the hardship of life.

All that emotional ism drains back and what are you left with what you believe. Yeah. And if you don’t believe the right thing. So when I stand at the foot of a grave or I’m trying to help a family through a tough time, you know what?

It’s not the emotionalism. It s the hope of the promises of God. The truth of his resurrection and Christ. Resurrection is our resurrection and it’s a foreshadowing of what is to come because he is the first fruits as the Apostle taught us in 1 Corinthians 15 of the future resurrection of all believers.

So that is what sustains us. That is why it helps us through those challenging times. Yeah. Yeah, I had a youth leader tell me back when I was about 17, if you can be persuaded into the kingdom with whatever tool you can be persuaded out it’s not genuine faith you know it has to be a work of the spirit right who draws you in because if if it is emotions if its just your friends are going or your mom went that you could be easily drawn out from your from what you believe and like you were saying the tough parts of life they get you right and that’s why again I really have been making the strong case and I’m not against new music and not even against a Christian concert.

I think they’re all good and have their place. But when we build the Sunday morning worship, corporate worship around this emotionalism and that these certain songs make us feel a certain way, okay, we’re really setting up our congregation for failure spiritually.

When we really need to remember that music is to teach us, admonish us. It is to affect the mind more than the emotion. The same thing with worshiping Christ and teaching of God’s Word. All that is designed to renew the mind that has been stained by the curse of sin.

Yeah. I agree with that. I think that we just need to constantly be in that state of renewing, that terms of deconstruction, people are fleeing and running because they’re seeing maybe they don’t have a place to fit or the emotions are running out.

As believers, as mature believers I think our job should be to pull and help those struggling brothers and sisters. I’m reminded of Jude 1 where he says to pool them from the flames. How would you encourage the believer who has a friend who says I need to cut all these things off my life because they’re not beneficial or something along those lines.

Yeah I think that always go back to the relationship that’s first that is most important relationship with Christ there walk with God so long before I want you attending corporately I watch you personally spending time with God and if we get that backwards it’s no wonder that you’re gonna give up on corporate worship because you don’t have that personal inspiration and fuel to stay loyal and faithful to God now people stumble we’re humans we are flawed we fail and so sometimes the emotions get to the best of us and even the things that we think are not always true and I know it’s hard for people to grasp that but everything we thank is not true.

And so what I would continue as a friend is to love people where they’re at and then my push would be to get them to start reading their Bible, spending time with the Lord in prayer, and then I would stair -step them, to develop the habit of corporate worship, staying loyal.

There’s nothing that says we’re going to understand everything about God and about His teachings and doctrines that are found in the Word of God. It doesn’t mean we have all that figured out. We’re on this lifelong journey of learning and growing and desiring God so I love it that we have we haven’t figured it out in one year I want to keep learning and expanding my knowledge of God and I just really encourage people to focus in that direction yeah yeah I think part of this too you know the Bible tells us to carry each other’s burden so when you see your brother floundering you don’t to say, well, you know, if they fell for that trap, they deserve it, or some believe in them out there to fend for themselves.

But the sad reality is sometimes that is true. Some believers are saying, well that’s that guy’s problem. How would you counsel the believer in the church who says they’re on their own, they should have been listening to the sermon.

They should’ve been, they kind of think of the Apostle Paul when he says, you guys are supposed to be in this spiritual meat and you’re still on milk. You know and some believers might fall into that a trap of saying well, they should be mature There’s no way that they could fail.

How would you? Encourage the believer that is strong in their faith in they’re growing, but they kind of like well they deserve Yeah, if you came to me with that attitude, I would say you need to deconstruct your faith Okay, and I say that you get back to Galatians chapter 6 where we are called as the spiritual and mature to reach out to our brothers and sisters who have stumbled or fallen into sin or have been overtaken by an addiction or some kind of a habit that has been a harmful to their spiritual vitality and I would love people where they’re at and then I will try to get them to take good steps in their faith with the Lord and I’d be willing to bear the burdens if they’re not ready for corporate worship that I would meet with them regularly either once a week or every two weeks and we would meet whether it’s at their place my place or a neutral place and we could study God’s Word I could get their feedback and I will just try to develop and mentor them into being strong and being ready to bless the body of Christ by being present and worshiping God corporately.

I love that because it takes us going out of our comfort zone and when one part of the whole body hurts, it’s not like we can say, well Fred’s over there by himself and it doesn’t matter, doesn’ t affect me.

It does. I think the New Testament is pretty clear on that and pushing. So I think you hit it, compassion. We should you know care for our fellow brothers and sisters yes and and let me just add this and I was helping somebody with this the other day because they were mad at someone else is sin and I said we got to get beyond this where their sin is worse than my sin yeah okay that somehow my son is better than their son and therefore I have the right to judge them yeah I had the Right to condemn them here’s the thing the grounds level at the foot of the cross and we’ve all sinned against God now some people may manifest that sin in profound ways that are difficult for us to process or digest but Jesus said that you know here are the Pharisees they were all religious and they were self -righteous and they we’re all this but here’s what Jesus says their heart was far from God and so maybe you’re not a drunkard and maybe you don’t have a pornography problem and you do go to church every Sunday but your heart is far from God so let’s abandon this concept indirectly or directly that somehow their sin is worse than my sin yeah yeah and that just reminded me of you know the story of the prodigal son yeah you have the one way everyone he runs away right you had the One who who stays and he’s he is growing that’s good I would think that a good word for anyone that deconstruct in a that’s leading them away from God, the one line that I would give, you know, is engage.

One word, engage, whether they’re, you, know a believer with a friend that is deconstructing and leaving the faith, or they are a person who is de -constructing the Faith, engage what word or what I guess line would you give to someone and say, okay, this is it, this the heart of where you need to be as you go down that road of figuring out what is man -made and what God truly desires from the believer.

Yeah, I would just really like that word engage and I would say engage with Christ, engage with his word. And if you’re struggling with a local fellowship of believers or even Christianity in its totality across the globe, or even in America, and you are disillusioned by maybe other leaders and other Christians in your life, that I will just say, engaged with Christ.

He will not let you down. Man is flawed. We will make mistakes. Leaders do sometimes fail and so engage with Christ personally. Walk with Him every day and let Him help you to have that discernment to what do I shed and what do i embrace.

Yeah. So in terms of why people are deconstructing or why they’re leaving. There was a couple things that stood out to me and I kind of want to go through those and just talk over how we could fix those problems.

So the first one was the lack of connection. A lot of people who were deconstructing Christians who said that they left was because they came to church and heard a sermon, but they didn’t feel like they had a place to belong.

They didn t connect anywhere. They heard the sermon but came in and they walked out the door. So how do we fix that problem of someone saying, I m leaving the faith because there was no connection yeah it’s tough I’m a pastor and I hear this all the time and i believe that God has called us to believe in Christ but he’s also called to belong to the body of Christ and not every fellowship local church is as good at it as some others and then second of all I think that we got to take personal responsibility okay so if I felt God called me to a local fellowship with all of its weaknesses and limitations then I would be intentional about being connected and I would work hard on finding my place by working together with the pastors the elders the deacons the leaders in the church I would find ways that I could get involved and I would be faithful in the little knowing God would eventually give me greater responsibility or opportunities to connect all right and then as far as building friendships I wouldn’t wait for people to invite me to do dinner with them or lunch with them I will be out there inviting everybody you know and so this is where I feel like Christians sometimes have the poor me syndrome and they’re like Oh Elijah sitting under that juniper tree and woe is me and I’ve tried to live for God and I’m the only one left trying to do what’s right when the truth is God’s got 20 ,000.

He’s gotta literally thousands of people who are on the front lines making it happen. Yeah. Okay. Now we’re all at different levels. Okay? Uh, honestly, I I, so packed out with friends. I don’t need anymore.

Okay, but you know, do, what I can to help you. But there’s others who are very lonely and they want relationships and They want more connected. So if I was in a church and I wanted relationships, then I would Talk to my pastor about could I start a Bible study?

And could invite some people either to My home or to one of the rooms in the church buildings or To a neutral site where we could have small group we Could have interaction and that we can be supportive of each other Yeah, I like that proactive approach because I feel like a lot of people my age are well I’m not on the fellowship committee.

So why would I go and reach this person or yeah They didn’t say hi to me when I walked in. Yeah But I really love that, you know go out and engage you go Take some of the burden on yourself Well, here’s what the Bible says if you want friends be friendly.

Yep. Okay. How about that one? and here is another one is I want you to remember that the mistake people have is they think centralizing church unto Committees and figureheads bureaucracy and all that is going to solve everything but here’s what really how the church works through the power of the spirit that lives in you if the Spirit of God leads you to Connect with someone if The Spirit God Leads you start a Bible study don’t wait on the pastor Don’t Wait on The Elders Don ‘T Wait On The Deacons Follow the leadership of The spirit Walk in Step with the spirt and you’ll see God do great things Yeah, I love that point.

I think another big fraction for why people are deconstructing their faith and this one’s gonna be a big one but the church is positioned on LGBTQ community and ideals it is no secret that the the Bible is firm on a on a position on lgbtq identification and things like that I think this part may be a little bit more shocking that the identification of LGBT lifestyles is over 20% in Generation Z.

So more than one in five people today, that’s you know more, than any other generation before. Right. So definitely something the church is gonna have to wrestle with. So how does you know the person who is in the Church, these Gen Z’s, one and five, how do they reconcile what they feel they identify as and what the church proclaims and preaches here’s what I would say is this that it’s back to that pluralism we were talking about and the desire to be inclusive so young Christians are struggling with a definitive stance against homosexuality or the LGBTQ plus I maybe we could say AI I don’t know what it is but they’re struggling with that and what I would say is that we’re not saying that you can’t reach out to them we are not say that you can build bridges to the and try to be a friend and win them to Christ all right but we were saying the apostles very clear about this that you cannot practice these lifestyles and be in the kingdom of God.

Now, I don’t make the rules. God does. I’m just the messenger. I won’t get mad at the mailman for delivering the electric bill. So don t get at me for the word of god to people. I m not hateful about it.

I am not gleeful about anybody being stuck in an addictive lifestyle that is destructive to them. That doesn t make me happy. I want to do everything I can. I’m gonna be friendly cordial you know the best person I can be to these people not gonna beat down on them or Pick on him in any way But what I would just say is that you no as we mature in our faith.

We got to understand Where those defining? Lines are about our Faith and that is one of them and don’t be ashamed about it So some churches have gone the route of affirming these lifestyles at the expense of the church So isn’t is there wiggle room, you know if these some prominent churches are saying that it’s okay.

So there must be some Room in scripture for them to back this up. Yeah, well, there’s not Here’s the only wiggler worm. I’ll give you is that a believer? like they struggle with addiction of drunkenness alcohol drugs they could have a sexual addiction they can have a homosexual addiction I believe that’s possible I believe somebody might have desires or temptations and be a believer yeah but none of these people should a be in leadership position at the church and none these peoples should be serving in a capacity as influencers in the church but they need to be discipled and they need be strengthened but honestly if you’re gonna continue in that lifestyle you are only manifesting that you not a believer and so I don’t give a lot of wiggle room I’m certainly compassionate to people who are saved out of this and they’re still struggling with it or maybe they are grew up around it and they have temptations towards it.

I understand all that because I wouldn’t differentiate that from any temptation of sin, okay? But what I would say is that the Bible’s clear and it gets back to this, do you believe the bible and do believe it’s the word of God from Genesis to Revelation?

And really what’s at the heart of this is they don’t believe a bible, they wanna create their own God, okay, and so then they want to try to find contradictions in the bibble and then, they gonna say, hey God he’s more you know inclusive in the sense that he allows any sin to go yeah so what do you say to the believer that’s at a church and they’re the kind of setting scripture aside yeah please people yeah get out get up and and go to a Bible believing church look if the pastor the elders the leadership team of the church is compromising on the Word of God then it’s most likely not going to stop.

It’s a slippery slope and they’ve already made that decision and so by the time it is public to you as one who’s in the family of God, then its probably not going reverse itself. Now there are times and occasions that this can happen but they are rare.

In general, most of the down the slippery slope they rarely return back to the fundamentals and the core values and belief systems of Christianity I mean play devil’s advocate what if I’m gonna be the light at this place yeah someone has to be a light why not come from within yeah well here’s what I would say to you is this it’s kind of like dating okay it’ s not missionary work yeah and so what I’d say is yeah be that light but you where are you gonna to be fed at?

Where are you gonna be strengthened so you can be that light? What’s gonna to your source to make sure you’re on fire for God and that you are standing strong and firm in your faith? And so if you aren’t getting a regular intake through corporate worship and through the connection with good godly Christians, then you will fizzle out and the light is going to So I would just disagree with that approach.

So some tough passages or some arguments for why people are deconstructing to the point of leaving the faith. And I just want to go through some of these arguments and get your understanding. So scripture is the backbone of the church.

I wouldn’t even say the very lifeblood it should be of every good Bible -believing church, So, most deconstructionists would believe that there’s some contradiction or flaw, either in God’s word or with his believers in the word.

So how would you, what would your encouragement be to believers or people who are fighting and saying there are contradictions. The believer is contradicting the Word or something like that. I would say this, that the Bible is a unity and that there are no contradictions.

There are passages that may be difficult but once understood in their context, the clarity is there and the unity is there. So again, if you are just a surface studier of God’s Word, then these contradictions are going to appear to you, but if you are rooted in your faith and you’re a deep studier, you’ll find that it makes a lot of sense and you can understand what God is doing.

Now this is how the devil works. Remember he told Eve to, would God, does he really mean that when he said that? It’s just about trying to undercut the integrity and the confidence in God’s Word. So that’s a place that I’m not going to go.

I am going to be firm and even if I don’t understand all the Bible, I’ m okay with that. Yeah I can’t explain every verse but I am okay. With that now sometimes in translations there can be apparent contradictions or even perhaps a mistake.

All right when we say the Bibles in Aaron we’re saying in infallible we are saying the original manuscripts okay and we’re not saying that the translations sometimes may bring out contradictions example in the King James translation it refers to the Holy Spirit as an it well that’s a major faux pas and that not gonna work because the holy spirit is a person yeah but that just a translation problem it’s not that it is in the originals manuscripts yeah okay so you’re gonna see that and different language barriers sometimes make it hard to capture everything that the original language is saying so there’s a lot of challenges there so don’t just jump to the conclusion that somebody throws out an apparent contradiction that there isn’t a good explanation in context yeah yeah so how do we become good you know Bible study years how did we you know find the right tools to study scripture in context?

Well I think first of all you need to get you what I would call a study Bible okay and I recommend like MacArthur study Bible I, would recommend the apologetic Bible study Bible that’s a good one the expositor study bible.

These are some good study Bibles that give context to difficult passages. The second thing I would do is I would make sure I have good, reliable commentaries and Bible dictionaries. Now all this can be through today’s technology.

You go to leglogos .com, esword .net. These, these, it’s all there. You can either download it for free or sometimes for a small minimum price you can get this information at your fingertips on your devices and it is all available for you or you can you could order the books on Amazon or other means but either way is just make sure you have resources that are helping you with the study of God’s Word but let me also say this that you need to be in a church that teaches the Bible and that your in Bible study that teaches The Bible.

And when you’re in church that is just you know hey let tell you 10 ways how to mow your lawn better well no wonder you can’t fight the devil because they’re sitting yet they sent any out there not with true armor of god but they are sending you out there with Nerf footballs.

Okay, and they’re telling you to fight the devil with the this stuff that a squirt gun and it ain’t gonna work And so I want the true sword. I what the shield of faith. I Want the helmet of salvation I?

Want The Word of God and I Want to be properly equipped to Be effective for God. Yeah, so so Gandhi said That the only thing kept him from Christianity were Christians So how do how, do we deal with you know again the contradictions not within scripture?

but Bob isn’t living out what scripture says therefore I reject Christianity how do you handle that yeah I mean again it’s shallow because are you gonna quit going to the grocery store because Bob is fat and eats too much you know I’m saying I means the idea that I want to use hypocrisy as an excuse before God to not follow God or be a believer is number one hypocritical in its own sense because you don’t you know you just because so you see somebody at a restaurant that’s a hypocrite you, don’ quit going to the restaurant yeah you know here’s the thing is that it’s just a lame excuse and then the second thing is this that we’re all at different places and spaces in our walk with Christ Bob maybe Dylan and and having some conflict or some things and he still might be shedding some of that old man and taking on some that new man you just found them in a bad space all right and but that doesn’t give you an excuse to not be all that God has called you to be and the you know the thing is this that Christ is our standard and Christ is the one we desire to feel like and he’s not gonna let you down so get your eyes on Jesus and you’ll keep plugging forward and another strong I guess point in deconstructionism is that the Bible talks clearly about the perfection of God as well as His love and mercy, while Scripture also talks about His wrath on sinners for not choosing Him.

So how do we reconcile that? God is love, mercy and perfect, but then He pours out wrath. So what would you say to the deconstructionist who’s struggling with that dichotomy of who God is mmm it’s a good question and I would say that you’re not always gonna figure that out God has transcendent perfect balanced beautiful and when we see a read in the scriptures things about the nature and the essence of who God is and we feel a conflict in our heart it the conflict doesn’t mean a it’s not true and be that somehow we need to abandon God but I would say continue to grow for instance when we see that the Bible refers to God’s anger well be careful that you’re not comparing that to human anger God anger is righteous and it is different than the anger of man or humans and so what sometimes we interpret the very essence and nature of God is through the lens of humanity which is understandable because we are human but remember that he’s transcended he so much more beautiful and above and beyond what we could ever imagine and that he is a holy God the supreme attribute of god is his holiness.

You don’t see the seraphan angels crying out love, love love or mercy, mercy mercy. What they do cry out around the throne of God night and day is holy, holy holy. At the core of who God is He’s holy and that certainly means He is pure.

His love is Holy, His mercy is holy, his righteousness and anger is holy. His wrath is Holy. There is no injustice in God. So another on that same thought, another big one that came up in almost every video that I saw was that how could we follow a God who sanctioned massacres in Scripture.

We see in the Old Testament where the Israelites are making their way through and they’re you know taking out entire Nations in the name of God and then you look in in history you see things like the Crusades in The name Of God going out and killing so how could someone follow this God who sanctions war yeah well I think that’s a presumption okay first of all let’s separate what what happened in the scriptures to what happen in History and the crusades were not always godly Crusades and they do not mean that God sanctioned them sometimes overzealous Christians took steps that were not honorable to Christ and so I think that we have to use some discernment there again we’re flawed people all right and people that I look up to and I read after and They have flaws.

Yeah, okay. I think about Jonathan Edwards who I just think it’s such a brilliant person But he was a slave owner and I don’t understand how somebody so smart could do that Okay, George Whitfield who was part of the second great awakening across America and New England Was a slaver, you know, and you’re that that is at great conflict with me but But so I want people to know that, that yes, there are things that have happened in history that are not always righteous, even though people put the name of Jesus on it and everything that has the Name of jesus on, it didn’t come from God.

So we have to have some discernment. That’s why the Bible says test the spirits. Now in relating to the Old Testament and what we see about these massacres, we are making some assumptions all right the Bible is like a photo album and so you get on your Google photos or you can on your Apple photos and you just see pictures okay in time in a moment of what happened all right but there’s not a lot of details given all right so I want you to know that the bible is like photo albums and get you see different scenes and You see different experiences and different outcomes that happen, but we’re not given all the details.

So are you assuming that God did not already give these people an opportunity to believe, to follow him? Did they not have an already have opportunity to look to God and repent of their sin and turn to Christ, but yet in their stubbornness and yet in they’re hard heartedness, they rejected God, they refused to belief in God.

they worshiped idols and they maximized their depravity so I think that our God is just and I’m not going to assume the worst about him I’ve been assumed the best about God and just because I read a narrative that seems a little bit injustice doesn’t mean that it was it doesn t mean that God didn’t provide other opportunities that are not recorded in scriptures for this same group of people to come to God I believe in God so want us to remember that and sometimes the depth of the depravity was so horrible that like God did with Noah he just wiped out a whole generation to start over fresh okay now it’s hard it”s hard to wrap your brain around that but God does that.

And God is all wise. I’m not going to build a God in my mind that I want, I’m gonna build a God in my that is revealed in the Word of God. That is, that’s the God I am gonna worship. And so we just have to, I think some of this is all back to idolatry.

We want our God to be manageable, we want out God be explainable, and I tell you God is transcendent. He’s above us, He is beyond us. He doesn’t think like us and his ways are higher than ours. Yeah so on that that point in terms of salvation, so Matthew 7 21 through 23 in 1st Peter 18 19 talk about You know Matthew says not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom So in a lot of these deconstruction videos, they’re claiming that He rejects even believers because there are some people who called on him that he pushes away why would I trust a God who isn’t compassionate who isn t keeping his promise to his believers who are calling him Lord so how would you respond to that person their objection to Christianity on that point yeah well I think they’re taking the text out of context I think what Jesus is trying to say is that there’s people who on the outside are self -righteous and that they build their so -called relationship to God on performance and what they’ve accomplished as opposed to what Christ has accomplished and they claim Lord Lord but Jesus says I never knew you don’t get to heaven by what you do you get to Heaven because of what christ did and he went to the cross died for us and rose again so that we can have a great future with him forever but I would just simply say that people not everybody that does say Lord Lord is a Christian and that doesn’t in any way somehow undercut God’s compassion it was very compassionate that God and all of his majesty left heaven and came born of a virgin and lived a sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and took the weight and the brunt and penalty of my sin on the Cross for me.

If God did nothing else for me it is enough. And so we have these false expectations we want this God to be fit in our box and yet he’s transcendent and if you you need to be born again you don’t need be religious.

The invitation is not to religious the invitation is not to work harder than somebody else. The invitation is to not perform and somehow merit worthiness before God, but rather the invitation to humble yourself before god almighty and admit your sinfulness and receive him as Lord and Savior.

Be born again through the power of the Spirit and dedicate your life to Christ and anything short of that it’s just not authentic. So you hit on this point already once I just want to go down this trail one more time so another huge part of deconstruction is the seeming injustice of God and to that point there a lot of people who are leaving faith because they say the Bible was used and in American history in order to dissuade enslaved African Americans from rebelling so there were people who claimed to be God honoring Christ followers pastors and leaders who held slaves and who push you know verses like slaves obey your masters in order maintain control so how would you handle that so I would say yeah you’re And it grieves me and it breaks me.

And I feel so bad about it and I wish it wasn’t so, but I’m reminded that the best of us on this earth are still sinful and that I have to keep my eyes on Christ. I hate that people manipulate the Bible to commit such a injustice in this world and it saddens my heart but I can only deal with my time and the times that I live in and I can’t confess sin for something that happened hundreds of years before I even showed up on the scene but i’m willing to be transparent and open about it I’m will to be honest that yeah that was wrong and I hate that and if I could I’d slap those people around you know me but I can’t look it’s it’ s hard to work through but i think we need to come to grips with people aren’t perfect it is not to excuse what they did all right but I promise you our God is so just that if he doesn’t bring justice on this side of heaven.

He will when they stand before him. Yeah. Okay. And I think God has done that, but they’re, my hope is not in perpetuating this current world, but my hope is perpetuated the future world that is to come when Christ rules and reigns where every wrong is going to be made right and all injustices are going to be corrected and that we will live and rule and reign with a Savior who is going to promote righteousness and justice and peace and mercy and I look forward to that day but until then I’m gonna keep fighting, I am gonna keep living, and keep being a voice in the wilderness and if sometimes I gotta be that voice within the body of Christ and sometimes I have to call out sin of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I will do it at the cost of them Retaliating to me or at The Cost of Them trying to do injustice to Me But I’m still going to stand for what’s right But i’m not giving up on Christ because he went to the cross for me and I am not Deconstructing my faith because my Faith is not in how people handle God or the Bible or how they misused the bible or anything like that my faith is in Christ and Christ alone to your point of you know standing in the gaps and even going against or fighting against brothers who are misusing scripture I think a lot of the abolitionists who started you know the movement of ending slavery were believers who realized the hijacking of of people and that’s hard to do for an entire nation and I think that is a good point.

What would you say to, so God didn’t step in time and stop the wrong interpretations of Scripture then, what’s to say that we don’t have wrong interpretation today? Yeah, I mean, the key is that the pendulum sometimes swings.

It swings violently from into the other the the ability to find balance sometimes among humanity and even Christians is difficult but all I could say is this that yes there are gonna be people that misuse the Bible they’re gonna they are gonna take the Bible out of context or they gonna bring in traditions or things that are insulting but just be the voice be like I appreciate those guys like Francis Schafer in the 70s and 80s who were challenging the normal thinking of Christianity.

I appreciate C .S. Lewis and I appreciate D .A. Carson and i appreciate John MacArthur and so many that have been great voices through the years and challenging to traditional thinking and of course one of my favorites R .C.

Sproul but be that person be that person that will challenge the traditions and remember that God is always shaping his people and he is perfecting them through this sanctifying process and it’s never going to be fully complete until we are glorified in his presence.

Well we’ll end with this one so in Genesis 3 there was a lot of objections to what’s happening in genesis because they say God put the of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden, if he was genuinely loving and all -knowing, why wouldn’t he remove that temptation?

Why would he allow it to condemn all of humanity? And this infinite sin gets this INFINITE punishment. So how would you approach that question? God does not want you and I to love him by force or to love Him like robots we are given this incredible choice Adam and Eve were given.

This amazing free will to choose between disobeying or obeying God and so unfortunately through the temptation of sin they chose to disobey God and the curse of sin is in every heart and every since then people are born with a selfish sinful nature.

But that in no way diminishes God’s wisdom, love, and sovereignty because God wanted us to love him out of our hearts and worship with that and in any way does that somehow make me feel less of God but I understand and and again even though I can’t explain every detail maybe answer every question that people have rushing through their minds now is that I’m just I guess I am just in this place that i’m okay and I love Jesus and I don’t have to explain him and i don’ t have him figured out and that’s what I think people want is that they if they can’t get every question answered and if they cannot figure out God in their little box then they are not going to follow Him.

Well you have to do you but for me I am all in and I’m totally sold out to Christ and I believe He is the savior of the world. Well thank you Pastor Mike for your insight and your understanding here and thank you all for joining this conversation.

If you like what you hear you can subscribe to our YouTube channel You can listen to us on Spotify if you know anyone that is struggling with this Deconstructing their faith share this video with them share This podcast with him so that they can hear some of the information given today Some of this information today