The Anemic Church

Pastor Mike will be speaking on The Anemic Church.

(Eli Torres) Hello and welcome to the Hope Worth Having podcast. I’m Eli Torres and I’m here with Pastor Mike Sanders of the Open Door Church. Today’s podcast is titled The Anemic Church.

(Mike Sanders) Wow.

(Eli Torres) So the church was initiated by God. We see the inauguration in the book of Acts. We see it explode from there. The century is following. We see, you know, adherents piling into the church and today that doesn’t seem to be the case. You know, people aren’t beaten down the door of the church. But before we talk about the condition of the church, I wanted to ask you what you thought the purpose of the church is.

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, well I think ultimately the purpose of the church as well as every Christian is to glorify God. Now that can extrapolate out into different ways and different functions that people have, but we really need to be about lifting up Christ.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, I would agree. Glorifying the Father, seeing other people come to Christ, that’s the biggest thing. On the purpose of the church, right, we see glorifying God, but how does that play out? Like what’s the practical function? How do we see that rollout?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, I think that like what we say at the Open Door Church is when we ask what is our purpose, it’s to glorify God by making disciples. So we feel that the greatest way to glorify God is to make disciples and following the Great Commission. And I think that we find our purpose and function in the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. And we’re able to live that out. Now accomplish that, but ultimately everything needs to come back to, we’re here to love God, love people, and we are here to make disciples by reaching them, baptizing them, and teaching them in God’s Word.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, so discipleship seems to be the heart of it all. So we live in this culture where they’re kind of more hostile to the church than, especially in this generation, you know, with all the different views that are popping up. I feel like a generation ago, it wasn’t uncommon to see a multi-generational family in a church, and now that seems to be more of an anomaly. There’s maybe a grandparent here, but their kids don’t go, or their grandchildren don’t go. What do you think the problem is? Do you see that same trend kind of?

(Pastor Mike) Yeah, I think some of it is cultural. There are less families in America than there ever used to be. I was just listening to something where they were talking about how there’s more singles in our culture. People aren’t getting married, and so I think that is a reflection of it. I think the church has kind of softened its message and kind of tried to be amicable to the culture and the world, and it has actually undercut its message and distinction, and therefore it’s not attractive, because most people, they’re looking for something different than what the world can offer, and so I think it’s important that we stay true to our calling and be courageous, but obviously the younger generation sometimes struggles, maybe they’re seeing a need of following Christ, and that might take some time. I think as you get older, you become more aware of your mortality and you begin to realize the need of having biblical values to kind of guide your life and to help you through. When you’re young, you live for self, and I’m not saying every young person does, but I’m just saying a lot of the culture does, and they wanna tap out, max out, relating to all that they can experience, and so I think some of that is why we’re seeing the drift.

(Eli Torres) Do you think that goes back to the church’s function of discipleship that maybe churches are missing that point? I know when I was in youth ministry, some people were just like, well, why aren’t we just having pizza parties? Like, well, that’s not our function, so do you think discipleship has kind of hit in the backseat in some churches?

(Mike Sanders) Oh, absolutely. I think that a lot of churches have become just entertainment centers, where they’re either entertaining the youth group or they’re entertaining people, and it’s, you know, how can we be different or how can we be something more captivating and enamoring to the people? And as a result, that as soon as a trial comes in their life or as soon as something moreā€¦ entertaining or more engaging, they run to that. Or they run from the church, or they run from Christ, because they’ve not been established in the faith. So that’s why I think like moms and dads, that has to be like their first mission field is their children. And start right there, reaching your children, and not only just helping them to understand the gospel, believe the gospel, but live the gospel, and be discipled in the faith. That’s important. And so if you want your children to live for God, then you gotta really make an effort there.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, yeah. So you’re saying this starts at the home instead of at the church?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, I believe so, because the church can offer as many programs and ministries as it wants. But if those programs and ministries aren’t complimented at the home, it makes it tough. I’m not saying it’s impossible, okay? But I’m just telling you that you need the home and the church working together.

(Eli Torres) Okay. Now in terms of societal influence that the church used to have, you may have more experiential knowledge than me on this, but it seems to me, you know, in the past decades, the church had influence in their communities. If there was a crisis, people came to the church, you know, if there was a natural disaster, the church was kind of the first hand to reach out, but it seems like people aren’t going to the church as much. They’ll go to a community center or things like that. Do you see anything wrong with that? Do you see that the church is missing its place or is that okay?

(Pastor Mike) Yeah, that’s a big question. But I think that there’s a shift in America where going to church used to be kind of like, even if you weren’t a Christian and you weren’t sincere in your faith, you kind of just did it because that’s what the culture did. Everybody went to church on Sunday. Well, now those days are over. And so I think that it’s important that the church really step up and understand that. But really what’s going on at the heart of why isn’t the church that place where people run to? I think some of it is people have lost trust and confidence in the church. So in the, you know, we go from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, there was a lot of moral failures among Christian leaders, whether it was church leaders, evangelists, TV evangelists. And I think that that began to erode people’s trust in the church. And then, of course, people experience problems at church. They have leadership issues. There’s division in the church. People are fighting. So, you know, people say, why go to church? Because I can get all that drama at work or all that drama at home. You know, why go to church? So I think that’s part of what’s happening is that there is just a lack of trust. But also, I think that God is purging, so I think it’s a dual track that people are losing confidence because of the failures of the leadership, but also because God is purging, and he may be purging the leaders, because not everybody’s genuine, and some people are in it for the wrong reasons, or trying to build their own kingdom, and unfortunately the sheep, they feel the ramifications of these divisions and purification, but God is purifying the church, and to find out who’s true, who’s authentic, who’s going to be real and following Christ, and so that’s what we’re seeing today, and I think it’s going to be even more clearer as we go into the next decade, that we’re going to see more pushback and persecution on the church.

(Eli Torres) So on that point, what would you say to young men that are going into the ministry? They’re looking out and they’re thinking, we’ve lost the trust, the people are leaving, how am I going to reach out to Christ or reach out to people for Christ, when the church is kind of going through this transition stage? How do we effectively minister to this generation?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, that’s a good question. I would say keep your heart tender and keep your skin tough so you’re gonna have to be willing to take critique because of that lack of trust. So in the old days, when I started preaching, whatever the pastor said, they just believed it fell down from heaven. But today, while I’m preaching, people are fact -checking me on Google, Siri. They’re making sure everything I said. There’s so much information out there. There’s so many preachers and teachers of God’s word that you can find out if the pastor, did he get this message from the internet or did he really get into the word of God? Did he plagiarize this sermon or was he someone who was really seeking God about what the message should be for the people? So I think that you have to start understanding that people are going to question and they are gonna have critique. So the key is you live a godly life before them. You be faithful, you be confident, don’t take it personal, keep plowing forward. And I believe that you can win people’s trust and you can win people’s confidence to be able to minister effectively for them. And in the long run, that’s gonna be better than somebody just handing it over to you because of a title or a position. And you gotta relate to people. So I think that’s important for these young guys when they go out there, recognize that some people are bringing in baggage, hurts, hang ups, problems, but don’t take it personal, just keep moving forward.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, yeah. So to your point of the waning influence of the church, Gallup notes that the US church membership was 73% when Gallup first measured this in 1937. And it remained near 70% for the next 60 decades before the steadily- decline Now in 2020, they say that the membership rates have fallen below 50% for the first time. And you kind of talked a little bit about, you know, family dynamics have changed and things like that. So half of those people from the 50% that have left memberships in churches, they have no religious affiliation. So some of them, you know, hands -off, they want nothing to do with church. Some of them though have left because they just find no need in membership or joining the church. So what would you say to the Christian that says membership isn’t important?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, well I would again tell them that the value of a relationship not only with God but with God’s people is critical to their spiritual growth. Now not everybody wants to max out their potential for Christ. Some people are very content just to slide into heaven, by the skin of their teeth. But, you know, I’d never been like that. I mean, if my coach said, hey, we’re gonna have extra practice, it’s voluntary practice, I was there. Because I wanted to do extra. I wanted to be the best I could be. And I didn’t always have the greatest talent, but I did have the greatest desire. And I wanted to give everything I had for God when I became a Christian, and I wanted to always do my best. Now, again, I feel like that it’s important to be in person, it’s to be connected to a church. There’s great value in it. And you’re not gonna find anything in the Bible that says thou shalt join a church. But what you are gonna see is God is calling us to be with one another, to practice the one anothers, to be a part of engagement with each other as believers. And so, however membership is done in the local congregation, that’s up to them. But the bottom line is we need to stay connected because it’s gonna be more important even as we deal with persecution and trials in our life. We need one another. God didn’t call you to live isolated. He didn’t call you to live disconnected with the people. So he wants you to be in a community of faith where you’re optimizing your opportunities to grow and that you are able to serve one another and support one another, encourage one another. We can go on down the list, but the bottom line is that you can’t obey these one anothers without being with one another.

(Eli Torres) Can I just do that? Snapchat, Twitter, all these other things. I can shoot a message to my friends for encouragement. I can encourage them that way. So why come in? Why do I have to see you in order to do that?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, well, I think that technology is wonderful and it’s a great tool. And I’ve never been afraid of technology. I’ve always embraced technology. But again, that’s like, why don’t you have a relationship with your spouse like that? Why don’t you have a relationship with your children like that? Why don’t you just do everything through technology and instead of having face-to-face contact, why don’t you just text your kids and never talk to them face-to-face or your spouse? Well, you see, that’s not going to work because that’s not the way you’re designed. Now, certainly, I can talk to my wife through technology, but there still needs to be that interaction personally because you’re not a robot. You’re not, you know, an automated system that just knows when to spit out the right words upon whatever question you’re texted. So, we’re designed to connect and I know some people get upset about this and you guys just need to calm down, but the Bible says we’re designed that it’s not good for a man to be alone and people say I’m taking that out of context and they melt down on me on social media. And I was putting that out there during COVID and people who were self-righteous wanted to tell me that it was wrong. Again, I know it’s in the context of Adam and Eve, but I also understand that there’s a principle and that God designed us not to be alone, but to be with each other. And even more so I would say that God has designed us to have face-to-face interaction with people. Now you talked with most young people today, they can’t even look you in the eye. They can’t even lift their head up and talk to you. You know why? Because they built habits of being socially interactive through technology, social media. And therefore they don’t have skills, they can’t even go into a restaurant and order and look the waitress or waiter in the eye. And I understand, and you know, because we order our meals now, people order it through Grubhub or whatever, I don’t know what’s out there now. I mean, you know, I’m not gonna pay you extra to bring me some food, okay? I’m just not good. So I’m just a guy gonna go in there and smile and I’m gonna interact with people. And I just feel like that’s the best situation.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, so anecdotally, you know, I hear people my age and younger that say, you know, well, why don’t I just have that fellowship within my family? Why do I have to be in the establishment of the quote-unquote church? Why do I have to be at a building? Can’t I just, you know, me and my family meet Jesus in the woods kind of thing? You know, so how would you answer that? Can’t I find Jesus apart from being here? If my family are believers and I’m a believer, can’t we just be out there? Can we get rid of the other people?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, yeah, I think that it’s not an either or situation. Nobody says that you can’t go on a lake or in the woods and worship God. And I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to communicate. What I’m trying to say is that you need both and that you need both. You need to not only have your personal time of worshiping, certainly you can fellowship within your family. That’s wonderful. I mean, that’d be right there, a huge step for a lot of people, you know, that they would actually talk to each other in the family, because most families don’t talk to each other. And that’s why there’s the breakdown of the family. But see, you got to understand that the family is the incubator where God has designed for us to learn the great value of fellowship and important for forgiving and the importance of learning to work together and to be a team. And all those things are found in the family. But I think that we got to recognize that God started this thing called the church. Like it wasn’t Mike Sanders who said, I think we should have church. I mean, it’s in the Bible. And Jesus said that he was going to start the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And so I think that that’s, first of all, that’s enough for me, okay? I mean, I don’t have to have any intrinsic value beyond the fact that Jesus told me so, okay? But I know other people do. They want something more than that. They have a hard time just being obedient to God. But there is great value in fellowshiping because I learned from you, you learned from me. I serve you, you serve me. We help one another because the world, it’s just bigger than you and your family. And so God calls you to bless others. And I think that if you just isolate, stay home, disconnect it, that you’re gonna miss out on, once again, being that maximum Christian.

(Eli Torres) What would you say to that? Your family is only a part of the body. So you do miss out on all those other parts that come from other families and things like that.

(Mike Sanders) Right, yep, I think that’s good.

(Eli Torres) We would be remiss if we did not talk about the last few years and the effect COVID has had on how we interact with the church, how other people, there are some stats here and I think they’re both affirmational and shocking. Some, at least I thought so. So first, the number of people who no longer intend an in-person service jump from 25% to 33%. So a third of people, so these are believers who no longer associate with the church. How do you handle that there? What would you say to the person who’s like, oh man, I’ll just stay home, I’ll be part of 33% there.

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, well again, I think a couple things are going on. Now some people are gonna be offended, but I sent some kind of a stat like that to my son, Josh, and he said, God is purifying the church. And I think that’s probably true because maybe some people weren’t real believers. I mean, they just came. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. But they weren’t really into Christianity, following Jesus, loving God, and being obedient to the Word of God. They’re not into that. They’re into whatever satisfies their flesh. And so I think that that’s part of it, that God has allowed in His sovereignty for COVID to distinguish who’s real and who’s not, okay? So I think that’s part of it. Some of it also is I recognize people have health issues. And see, you got to remember that American culture, even though it has this great desire to be relevant and to stay connected to the youth, did you know the American culture is actually getting older? Because the boomers are living longer than they ever have. But look, the boomers are having less children, and their children are having less children, you know, on down the line. Everybody’s having less children. Some families are deciding to have no children. And so I’m just telling you that there’s not as many young people as there used to be. So this shift in the church is that some people are just physically unable to make it. They’re believers, followers, but there’s just an older crowd of people who follow Christ. And the people coming, the generation coming behind them that is healthy and able to come, well, number one, that there’s just less of them, okay? There’s just less of them, and so there’s just a natural attrition. And then number two, some of them, they weren’t discipled well in the home, or they weren’t even taught the gospel, and they just were taught religion, and they don’t even know why you go to church, and they don’t see its value, or they have never been born again, and so they don’t come. So I think that there’s a lot of factors playing into that.

(Eli Torres) Do you think there’s any dangers to attending online only? So like I know on my news feed on Facebook, or Instagram, or anything like that, there’s random quote-unquote pastors or churches who just espouse anything. In fact, I heard one guy, a sermon on John 3 16, and he mentioned that we’re all the Messiah. You know, like, what do you think the biggest danger is of online services?

(Mike Sanders) Well, I think it’s like anything, that you gotta have discernment, and if you’re not rooted in Christianity and your faith, then you’re gonna believe anything and everything, okay? And so you really gotta be on it. You gotta know the word of God. You gotta be able to distinguish. I mean, if somebody hands you a dollar bill, you gotta be able to distinguish. Is that a real dollar bill or some kind of fake copy? And same thing with our faith, is you gotta know the truth, and so that’s important. Now I’m okay with online, obviously I do online, but my goal is for online is to stair-step people to in person. And so we’ve seen families, couples, individuals who started out listening to us online, and I would say most people, before they came, connect to a church, they check it out online, they’re gonna listen to the pastor online, they’re gonna see what’s on their website. I think that’s where the entry point is for a lot of people today. And then we want them to migrate into discipleship and following Christ into Bible studies and groups and things like that. So I think that’s important. But I also see the value of online for people who have health challenges or people who are caretakers, people who have to work on Sundays because they are in positions like in the medical field or maybe they’re firemen, all kinds of different responsibilities that they have. So I don’t wanna take that option away from people. And I want that to be there as long as people understand it can’t be your only diet of spiritual food.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I wanna shift here a little bit about the young people during COVID and how that looks. So as much as us millennials get ragged on, Barna reported that as of August, 2020, they are the fastest growing church attenders and growing in membership. They are going, they moved up from 17% in 2020 to 25% of millennials are now going to church and being involved in membership. I think this trend suggests maybe a shift in their thinking. What would you think of for this stat?

(Mike Sanders) So I think that again, you know, Rush Limbaugh used to always say this, and it wasn’t a spiritual thing, but he saw it as a political thing in his mind, but I see it also as spiritual, but that the older people get, they become more conservative because A, they have to pay taxes, or B, they start having children, and there’s certain things they want for their children. So I think as the millennials are becoming older, having families, children, and dealing with the realities of life, I think that there’s a call back in their heart to the values that their parents taught them, or maybe the values that they are enticed by relating to the church. And so that’s what I think is going on, it’s just a normal shift that every generation has. Yes, I understand it. Sometimes the 20 -somethings, you know, they want to go out and experience the world, they want to try everything. I’m not saying that’s wise, but I’m just telling you that it does happen. But as people get older, they realize that you can’t game all night and you can’t get drunk all night, and this is no way to raise a kid, you know? And so they want to shift back to a traditional family setting.

(Eli Torres) And I want to piggyback on your point there of trying everything. So within those stats, that uh Barna gave out they mentioned that of those new church attendees 22% of them are shifting from church to church so is that an effective way to grow and grow spiritually or you know again we talked about the the goal of membership and things like that yeah how would you answer that?

(Mike Sanders) I would say two things that you can’t grow without commitment okay so you need to be committed to a local fellowship of believers and when I’m talking about that I’m not talking about a place or a building I’m talking about people you need to be committed and iron sharpens iron and so I think that’s important you can’t grow without commitment but also that you can’t run every time there’s a problem so look this is why the family is so important you know every time there’s a disagreement between the husband and wife or the children do we all just run do we all just burn bridges is that the ultimate so I don’t Agree with something that the church makes a decision on or I disagree with a new ministry they’re starting or I have a frustration with them Well, look Jesus laid out a process on how to deal with that in Matthew chapter 18 And all we got to do is follow that process now I get it if the church is teaching false doctrine if the church has decided that they’re just gonna be a social club I get it. But what millennials need to learn to do is Commit and quit running it’s easier to run than it is to stick it out and grow through it Just because your church is going through a hard time doesn’t mean God’s telling you to go to the other church That’s having a great time. See and that’s the problem is that sometimes Churches are like people they have good days and bad days they have good seasons and bad seasons and so we’ve got to stick it out with them and help them through it and help that congregation thrive Good.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, as far as the believer’s position what they should be doing you know what I’m trying to get at is the heart of their responsibility in terms of, we talked about discipleship growing them and you mentioned that, you know, this has to start at home, this has to be a process that you push in your own children. Is the believer obligated to be you know a part of a church, you know Is that I know the Bible tells us to not forsake the assembling? Yeah, but you know, like where does that end is that one service a month to you know, like what? Yeah, is there any biblical principle there?

(Mike Sanders) Yeah, I don’t think that there’s anything that says hey You got to go three times a week five times a week or seven times a week Okay, and I wish it was in there and make my life a lot easier alright, but what the Bible teaches us is that we’re to be with the Saints and that we’re not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So it kind of gives us the guardrails on both sides that is the bare minimum you need to be with the saints. And at the extreme level, you need to make sure you don’t forsake the assembling. Now, whatever your local congregation has decided, you know, you have elders, you have deacons and pastors, and they have to decide how we’re going to do our assembling. And some churches meet once a month. Some churches meet every Sunday. Some churches meet two or three times on a Sunday. Sometimes churches meet, you know, like our church, we meet Sunday morning, we have Sunday school, we have church, and then we meet on a Wednesday night. We have other things going on, different groups and Bible studies going on throughout the week. But however that works for you, you just fit into the life of that church to the best of your ability and keep trying to grow in your faith. I have people in my membership that they work on Sunday. So they really like our Wednesday night Bible study groups, or they like our Thursday night Bible study groups. or they have other avenues to stay connected to our church. So that works for them. They’re no less members to me, and I care about them as much as anybody else who’s here Sunday morning, Wednesday night. So I think the leadership should be an example. I think if you wanna help lead people, you can’t ask them to do what you don’t do. And so you can’t say to people, go to church, but you don’t. You see what I’m saying? I mean, that irritates me. And so again, people have sicknesses and sometimes their children have issues. But ultimately, there’s never been a time when, even if I didn’t feel like going to church, that when I went to church with God’s people, that I wasn’t blessed.

(Eli Torres) Yeah, yeah. I like your point of, to the best of your abilities, because there’s some that can be strained from church. They go so much that they have nothing for family. They have no room for other relationships. I know growing up, my mom had us in every service. She could think of the widow’s basket weaving service. We were there. But yeah, I really like that.

(Mike Sanders) And if I could jump off that, because that’s the way I was relating to, not that I grew up that way, because I grew up in an unchurched home. But when I became a pastor, it was Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, everything going on. When I finally realized that you know what? I’ve got to cut back some things. I can’t be at everything in the church, even as a pastor, so I can have time with the family. All right, and so you got to balance it out. And I’ve always told the church that, hey, I’m not putting the family on the altar of the church. So again, like there were times we would have birthday parties on Wednesday nights or Sunday nights, and we didn’t go to church. But it was okay, because 90% of the time, I’m going to be at church. But we wanted to make that day special for our kids. And we wanted to kind of celebrate them, and thank God for them and what they have meant to us. And the church could wait, I’ll be back.

(Eli Torres) Where would you think that line is? Some parents are, I’m gonna go to every sporting event every Sunday, so how do you find the balance between putting your family in a good position and your time in a part of Believers? How did you do that?

(Mike Sanders) Okay, so Sunday morning was always important to us because that was, we felt like the main point gathered on Sunday, so we allowed anything after that we were all cool with and we’ll be at it as much as we could. And that was us, but I’m not gonna be legalistic about it, okay, I think you have to ultimately, that’s just Mike’s opinion, you know, I think you have to be led by the spirit, okay, and, but I do think that we all have seasons of life, see, here’s, I know this is a shocker to parents, but your kids are gonna grow up, okay, and they’re gonna move on, most kids are, okay, and they’re gonna move on with their life, and I know some of you have figured out how to get rid of your kids out of your house, but. You know, just call me and I’ll help you but bottom line is this that’s a season of your life and then it’s gonna be gone Yeah, and you can dedicate as much as you want to the church. You can go every minute of the day They don’t care. Yeah, you know me but so, you know kids are important and you got to make them a priority because you can’t keep letting these kids grow up and becoming a disaster Making bad choices. So your kids need you and it doesn’t matter they and you could say I love them But there’s only one thing kids understand T -I -M -E You spent time with them. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and that’s how simple it is. We don’t need to there’s no psychology for that Yeah, you don’t need to read a psychology book or a parenting book. Just spend time with your kids.

(Eli Torres) Yeah Yeah, so the future of the church kind of want to talk about that before we end here So as I you know I have the honor of helping with our children’s ministry and some of the older people they look back to yes Years and say there were 700 kids pouring out of the buses, you know, yeah all these things Right and then as looking forward looking at ministry and thinking man 700 kids, how do you even do that? You know, so is the church just at this tipping point you kind of mentioned this idea of purging is the church at this point? Where it’s you know, it’s gonna wane and influence in the American culture Is it gonna be kind of you know, the small speck of society? What do you think?

(Mike Sanders) Definitely. I think that the Bible talks about there’s gonna be a great falling away And I believe that America has had seasons of harvest and revival and spiritual awakenings But also right now I believe America is under the judgment of God for decades of disobedience to God kicking God to the back of the bus or making him be on the back burner of their lives or Saying that you know prayer can’t be in school and we can’t have the Ten Commandments in the courtroom Well, look God takes the hint man. He doesn’t you know, he just moves on. And the Bible says in Romans 1, he gave them up. He gave them up. He gave them up. So yes. Now, are there moments and times that communities and churches and perhaps even regions of America could experience a revival? I believe so. And I certainly don’t believe we should retreat or stop evangelizing. But I want people to understand that we live in a unique time and the judgment of God is upon America, but we need to stay faithful because your labor is not in vain. And we want to keep trying to reach as many people for Christ. We may not see some of the harvest that our forefathers saw. Okay. But that doesn’t mean God hasn’t called us. Remember Isaiah, Isaiah six, after his great experience of worshiping the Lord, he said, here am I, and send me and God said, I’m going to send you to people who will not listen. All right, and to people who will not obey. And, you know, everybody thinks that success is just based on bigness, but it’s not sometimes it’s just obedience, no matter what the outcome is.

(Eli Torres) Oh, well, that was perfectly said and wraps up where we’re going today. I want to thank you all for joining the Hope Worth Having podcast. Feel free to listen in on Spotify, Facebook. YouTube. We can’t wait to see you again. Thank you

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