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Persecution in the Church Today

Pastor Mike and Eli discuss current issues in the local and global church when it comes to persecution within the faith. 

Hello everyone and thank you for joining. I’m Eli Torres and I’m here with Pastor Mike and this is the Hope Worth Having podcast. Today’s discussion is centered on persecution both globally and nationally.

Now Pastor Mike you have been in ministry for a long time and before we start our conversation on persecution would you mind telling the people what kind of persecution is? Certainly when I think of persecution it’s sort of people who are opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ they’re opposed to the church that the Lord has established on this earth and so they are making an effort to either stamp out the gospel or Christians and persecution come in different ways.

Sometimes it could be political sometimes it could be physical or even sometimes intimidation can be a form of persecution but either way it’s certainly something that all believers have to be prepared for.

Now do you think that persecution is, so some people you know everything is persecution. They didn’t like my dog they didn’t like my cat. What do you think kind of is the center point of persecution so is it you know people don’t like me because of my characteristics as opposed to along the lines of what you’re saying more of the gospel is that what it’s more centered on?

Yeah well you know the Apostle Peter talked about that at First Peter 4 he said you know it’s not to your credit if you are persecuted for your behavior or your conduct but that for you to accept persecution if you’re persecuted for standing up for God or promoting the gospel of Christ and so we have to make sure that you know we’re discerning about how that looks and I agree with you sometimes everybody interprets everything as persecution.

and really, it’s your own foolishness, okay? I think we have to respect, if I go to work and my boss says, hey, you can’t be out here trying to win everybody to your religion, then I think I should respect that and let my life be a testimony as opposed to my lips.

But when I’m out there in general society, I certainly wanna have spiritual conversations and I wanna be able to share Christ with people. But if I’m persecuted because I’m out there disobeying my boss, then that’s really not persecution, that’s just the consequences of my foolishness.

Yeah, I think that’s a good point to make because some people are running out thinking I’m being persecuted but it’s really their own mistakes. I think that we need to be mindful of those kind of things.

With that said, the BBC reported that Christian persecution is now at genocidal levels globally. What impact do you think that has on the church? Well obviously it you know from a just a standpoint of looking at it physically is that I think that it can have an intimidation effect that it could cause the church to shrink back and be scared and afraid to tell others about Christ and I think that’s one of the goals you know we’ve been seeing some pro -life people been arrested by the United States government yeah and put in jail well they’re trying to send a message you know out there they’re trying to let everybody else know you’re next and so straighten up so I think that happens but I also think the opposite happens is that it actually backfires on those who are persecuted we see that in Acts 4 Acts chapter 5 the gospel just begins to spread like crazy and there’s the Spirit of God creates boldness in the hearts of people and they just jump on the wave of sharing Christ with others yeah I’m reminded of the Apostle Paul you know when he talks about him being in chains spurs other people to believe yes and that’s encouraging on that same stat the Fox News mentions that it goes largely unreported by mainstream outlets why do you think there’s such like disparity and coverage in terms of persecution in the church depending on what outlet you’re listening to yeah I just think that we have to understand that the secular culture is not gonna prioritize this they don’t see it as important now every once while there might be a believer on these news outlets that will try to make it a point of emphasis but in general they’re just not going to be out there saying hey this is happening or that’s happening and so that’s where we have to make sure that we’re connected to one another so I’ve been trying to on Twitter keep up with some of the persecution going on in Iran and they’re sharing a little of the details.

My biggest concern is not so much the overthrow of the government. God’s will be done, but how’s the church doing? How’s there’s an underground church in Iran and there’s been a revival in Iran. A lot of people are coming to Christ leaving Islam and embracing Christianity.

So I’m interested in how the church is doing and I’m gonna have to get that through maybe some back channels or do a little research and connect it to organizations that are missionary endeavors or even Christian New Zealand.

Yeah it’s interesting that you mentioned that you know some of these countries are more restricting but yet the gospel is growing. People are speaking about their faith. They’re not afraid of it. Pew Research says that since 2015 Christian persecution has been growing.

Now with that said Christians make the largest religious group quote -unquote Christians you know. Because within that you know Mormons and things like that are classified But how do you think with that hostility?

What do you think causes the rise of it? so you have you know political actors and trying to make a name for themselves and in some of these Muslim countries or You have people that are more secularized and things like that.

But what would you say? Fuels that kind of animosity. Yeah, I think at the heart of it. It’s a demonic Forces the devil’s fighting and he is using secularism humanism and even false religions To push back on the gospel and we are in a battle every day for good and evil for what is right what is honorable to God and Helping win people to Christ to believe and become fully devoted followers.

So I think that’s part of it I also think that sometimes People misunderstand Christianity in that they think that if there’s a large swath of Christians in their nation or their community that they would not be Good citizens or they would not be helpful to the community when just the opposite is true.

The best citizens are Believers and yes, we have two citizenships heaven and here, but the best citizens should always be Christians But I think you know, there’s some misnomers out there and so people misunderstand Christians And so they think maybe it would be a problem.

So they’re trying to squelch it or mitigate it They don’t want to spread it in their their province or something Yeah on that point you think it’s more important than for the the body of believers to really emphasize who they are in Christ You know Following the laws and the rules, you know Romans 13 tells us that we should obey our governing authorities So do you think that the country’s that immense persecution?

Fall under that they need to show Christ even more so then, you know, maybe a country that isn’t as heavily persecuted. Yeah I think it’s a two -part factor here. First of all is our identity. We got to be careful that we as believers don’t get identified with political groups or even other groups out there that maybe their purpose and intentions are different than the kingdom of Christ.

And so yes it doesn’t mean that Christian can’t be politically active or that they can’t be evolved in other groups but our identity is in Christ and we want to make sure people understand what we’re about who we’re about and we don’t want that to be muddied.

But the second part of relating to that is that I think it’s important for us as we are out there sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ that we obey to the best of our abilities the laws of the land and that the only threshold for us is that if it’s an attack upon our faith now I did not agree with all the COVID rules and nobody loves freedom more than Mike Sanders okay but you know look if that’s if they whatever the rules are I’m going to go with it until they tell me I can’t practice my faith and that’s the way I feel like Daniel was until he got to the point he complied as much as he could until he got to that point that they said hey you can’t pray that’s when he opened the windows got on his knees and cried out a little bit louder to God and so what I want to say to people is that let’s not be those kind of people that are rebel rousers we’re out there protesting waving political flags threatening to see that when he walked on this earth and again I know that when people listen to this podcast they’re gonna push back on that but they’re conflating political movements with the gospel and you don’t want to do that but what we need to do is say hey you know look I don’t like to drive 55 but I need to do my best okay I have to be careful not to get ran over for driving 55 but what my point is I try to do the best I can obey the laws all right even though I may not agree with them all but when they tell me I can’t assemble or I can’t pray I can’t read my Bible okay then that’s an issue that’s when I’m gonna resist hey we want to take a quick break in the podcast to let you know about the hope worth having YouTube channel our channel has tons of content to help you along in your spiritual journey and whether you are looking for a quick word of encouragement or a full sermon our hope worth having YouTube channel has what you need to get through the day and you need to check it out today and be sure to subscribe so that you can be alerted when we upload new videos this is Pastor Mike letting you know that in Christ there is hope worth having yes I think that’s a good line there.

I think of when Jesus came to this earth, he’s not there to overthrow the Romans. He’s there to submit to the will of the Father. And you kind of hit on that, just how we should be. And I just want to shift a little bit from the global persecution to America a little bit.

In the culture and attitude, I think it’s important to first note that what the body of Christ is going in globally, we don’t see that effect here in America as much. We aren’t being thrown in chains because the church is open or because we spread the gospel or shared it.

But I think there is persecution in America. And I think there’s a couple different instances we can see that one is even in social media and the mainstream media of how the depiction of church is. If you look at a movie, the pastor’s the person who doesn’t know anything or he’s the guy relegated to the background.

How do you see persecution growing in the United States? Well, I think it starts with canceling, a cancel culture. Trying to cancel us on social media, trying to cancel us through the internet, and trying to not let us have the opportunity to spread our message.

So you remember this, the truth will always win. And people don’t like the truth, because it does change lives. And that makes the devil mad, and it makes all his cohorts mad. And so I believe in the truth, and I believe that I’m okay with somebody wanting to tell a lie, they can have the freedom to share, but let me have the freedom to share, and I believe truth wins.

Now, so I think that those platforms out there trying to limit the message of Christ is really where it begins. And then I think that persecution is gonna take place in how churches, believers assemble.

So they’re gonna use zoning. For instance, I heard about a story in that this guy wanted to have a Bible study. Well, it got popular, and all of a sudden 20 people came, and then 30 people came. And so the city came in and said, hey, you can’t be assembling that many people in this house.

It violates code. And so these things happen. And so we have to find ways to work around that, and remember that the gospel is not just comprised of trying to assemble in large groups, but sometimes we have to do it in small groups, and we have to do it in different ways.

But yeah, persecution’s out there. I mean, I already mentioned about the pro -life movement. They’re mad because Roe vs. Wade got kicked back to the states, and now the states decide. Despite what people say wasn’t that abortion was overturned, it’s just they said, let the states figure it out.

And so there’s a big debate in evangelical Christianity right now even about whether is it better for it to go back to the states, or would it be better for it to be handled federally? And that’s another that could be another topic you and I have but what I want you to know is that some of the pro -life people Are being thrown in jail.

Okay, so the justice system the FBI the Department of Justice They’re being weaponized to say okay You can’t there are certain laws and you can’t be coming over here and praying for these little babies That are getting ready to be aborted and so they’re throwing them in jail and things like that.

So I think it’s there And I think it always always be there and I think it’s America becomes more humanistic That it’s gonna even be More spread. Yeah, so so on that point do you think that? So you mentioned before we you know, we don’t go out politically and we yeah, don’t rush against the government per se But what should the church stance be on issues like that?

Should we be out there praying for? In front of a clinic or should we be praying, you know publicly? And things like that where where’s the line between you know taking up public space and being kind of the nuisance to our government Yeah, you know here’s what I would say to people is that How we share the gospel is preferential Okay, so I mean look when I was a young man I know it’s hard to believe but I Mean I literally would go out there on street corners in Virginia Beach in the middle of the night on a Friday night When it was packed out,

and I would be waving my Bible preaching. I would go into Laundromats and I would stand up on the table and I would start preaching Okay, I would go into Alabama and I would go into parking lots where a large number of teenagers were assembled cruising around and They were all hanging out and I would stand up and preach the Bible the gospel now As I look back I first of all can’t believe I’m still living But number two I want to remind people if you think I’m crazy now you should’ve seen me when I was in my 20s But number three I’m not sure if it was the most effective now That’s my preference,

but yet I see people out there, and I want them to have the freedom I’m not a guy who’s gonna hold up a sign. I’m not gonna protest at a clinic I’m not gonna try to be obnoxious or even Forward in my opposition But I’m more behind -the -scenes guy or try to litigate things to where there’s more freedom and that people can We can abolish some of these things that are ungodly and immoral, but We all have a style and we all have a preference and so I’m not here to judge those preferences I’m just saying I’m glad roll out there fighting the good fight because here’s the thing think about this when they’re done Arresting all the people that protest or pray at an abortion clinic,

okay when they’re done with those people and they’re all in jail who do you think they’re coming after next they’re coming after Mike he’s over there praying he’s not as obtrusive and he’s not as obnoxious but he’s still against abortion so we got to get rid of him too and so that’s the way it works so that’s why I’m like I like those guys out there because they’re on the front lines and I want them to take the hit first so we have an instance when the then presidential presidential candidate Beto O ‘Rourke suggested that any church that opposed same -sex marriage would lose tax exemption and I think that’s pretty bold to say as a presidential candidate he said this quote there can be no reward no benefit no tax break for anyone or any institution any organization in America that denies the full human right and full civil rights of any single one of us And so as a president,

as we go to make the priority, and as we are going to stop those who are infringing upon human rights of our fellow Americans. So that doesn’t seem like persecution in a sense, but it does go against doctrinal positions of the church.

If we have to agree with something in order to get benefits, how would you respond to that? Well, it’s a good point, but I’m a little conflicted, and I don’t want to dive too deep that I lose everybody on this, okay?

But I want people to understand we’re a very privileged nation as living in this nation as Christians, in that there has never been in history a nation, nor is there in the present time, a nation that says that if you’re a Christian, part of a Christian church or group, you get tax -free benefits, okay?

So we have to be careful, like you said, hey, they take away our tax status and we’re no longer tax -free. Well, a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world are paying taxes. They’re not getting, like, land for free, tax -free, I should say.

And so that doesn’t bother me so much, okay? It wouldn’t shock me. I’m surprised it’s lasted this long, okay? Because, again, remember that America is becoming more secular. And so as it drifts farther away from God, then those who lead the nation are going to say, we’re not giving special privileges to these people who are Christians or, you know, why doesn’t somebody else get that privilege, right?

And then we love to spend, okay? Americans love to spend, so they’ve got to start finding money somewhere, and when you look at all the churches and all the religions and all the land that they got, you know what I mean?

They’re missing out on a lot of tax revenue. I mean, the reason that they want marijuana to be lived. legalizes for the tax revenue, okay? Nobody, no politician thinks it’s a good idea to be smoking weed and then going out there and drive and kill somebody.

They just like the idea that billions of dollars could come into their coffers. And now instead of the drug dealer having them, they got it. And they get to decide how that money’s spent. So we gotta keep that in mind.

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The other thing is this, here’s the problem about the whole thing about same sex marriage and all this and these people that are a bit upset about it, is that marriage, see the church released or gave up its authority in the area of marriage a long time ago when they said to the government, you give the license, okay?

See, the government shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all, okay, and the church should say, we’re the ones that give the license to marriage, and so I don’t care what the government wants to do, if the government wants to let you marry a horse, who cares?

Okay, I mean, I think it’s stupid, I don’t think it’s gonna be helpful, but see, what we need to get back to is that, look, here’s what the church does, we do Christian marriages, a man and a woman, okay?

That’s the way it is. And whether you give us tax benefits or not, who cares? But we don’t care what, we don’t come to you for a license government, you’re not in charge of our marriages. And so that’s what I’m trying to say again, is that we’re, you remember what Jesus said, render unto the things that are Caesar’s, Caesar’s, and render unto God the things that are God’s.

So look, secular marriages, that’s Caesar, he can have it, I don’t care, I’m really not interested in it anyways, and they can do whatever they want, and I’m surprised they haven’t, they’re not doing weddings for a person marrying a tree, who cares, all right?

But the things that are God’s, holy matrimony, you don’t get to be involved in, and we don’t care what you say, and we’re not going to you for a license anyways, we do it within the church, and so we want to, remember, you get married in the sight of God, and.

your family and friends and I just think that sometimes we’ve lost we’ve missed you know me so we’re fighting a fight that I think is stupid yeah all right I don’t care what the Supreme Court says about marriage all right because it has not it’s it’s Caesar it’s that’s their stuff but when it comes to God you don’t get any say about the matters of God because Jesus is the head of the church not Caesar and not any government yeah so what do you think so most churches are smaller in size you know a hundred people most the average church doesn’t have you know a lot of huge facilities or a lot of people to pay for that how do you what do you think the shape of the church looks like then if the government does step in and say well you’re gonna follow our restrictions yeah that’s a great question because I often tell the deacons that we’re blessed here we got 52 acres massive buildings and we have a big footprint here in Frampton County Chambersburg and I’m not sure that in the future that’s going to be sustainable because I believe our tax status will be stripped from us eventually okay so then what will the church do it will downsize and it will go into small group mode okay that’s what’s going to happen and most churches won’t have the resources to pay the taxes okay and so they’re going to have to find ways to like they did in the early church either meet in church or in homes or they’ll meet in community venues or maybe a rented space that is nobody’s been in that building or that room for 10 years and hey we’ll rent it out to the church and you guys can come in here and meet together and do your things you see what I’m saying so any way that they don’t have to pay for taxes you know is the way it’ll be so you’re thinking a shift in the way we practice not so much our doctrine or anything like that but the way it looks the outward appearance what do we mean and things like that yeah I think in the future the church is going to drastically change the mega church is going to go away okay there’s no doubt in my mind now I don’t know if it’s 10 years 20 or 30 okay but the way things are tracking now I just really think it’s all going to happen in 10 to 20 years yeah to go a little further on the in and push into the church from the state from in America we have a state delegate Elizabeth Guzman from Virginia proposed a bill that would criminally prosecute parents who do not affirm their kids as transgender now this again it doesn’t seem like overt persecution but this has bearings on the church how is this going to affect the body of believers how do you think the church moves forward Yeah it’s gonna be tough just talking to somebody about you know they’re wanting to pass a law here in Pennsylvania that if you in your counseling somebody comes to you and they’re struggling with their identity their gender identity if you don’t affirm that if they feel like they’re you know something different than what they were born biologically that you could actually be arrested in Pennsylvania so these dynamics are coming before the church all right and I think the church again is gonna have to first of all remember that there’s some things we don’t need to be involved in okay and one of the things is sometimes the church spends too much time in counseling okay and they want to counsel everybody they want to fix everybody really only the gospel can fix people okay only the gospel can change a heart and only the gospel can get you going right but the second thing related to parents once again you’re gonna see more homeschooling because here’s the thing is that how are they going to find out that you’re not affirming your child and how’s a child even going to know about transgender?

Okay it’s going to be through the public systems it’s going to be through the culture so parents are going to start blocking that out insulating their kids from those things whether it’s homeschooling we don’t go out and do as much we’re not going to watch as much media out there and so we’re just going to keep our kids away from all that so that we don’t have to address there’s gonna be a lot of preventive maintenance done by parents in the in the faith.

Now how does that look when the church becomes this symbol of they’re in opposition of what the culture deems as good that that’s going to build more animosity that’s going to build more hatred toward the church and again we’re not in that position as the global churches you know no one’s for the most part burning down churches and things like that but do you see that starting to be where do you think the tipping point is I guess between where we are now with these small implementations of laws and where the global church is?

Yeah well it’s hard to know exactly but all I would say is rejoice I mean if you’re living such a life that’s contrary to the culture that they notice it and they’re upset with you remember Jesus said they hated me first okay so they’re going to hate you all right so the culture doesn’t like us and the tipping point is just going to be based upon how the leaders want to implement it and how much they want to do all right as far as trying to push back on the culture they’re they’re trying to do it through laws and I think we need to be prepared that they’re going to be christian families broken up thrown in prison because hey you don’t firm transgender your child needs a sex change and you won’t allow it to happen again it’ll be over my dead body okay now all my kids are growing up so it’s not a big deal but I mean I’m just saying that if I was if my kids were younger I’d rather die than allow that.

That’s the way it’s gonna be and that’s what’s probably gonna come down to some people that have to be willing to be thrown into jail or be smacked around and beat up and maybe possibly killed. I want to end with this last point here.

I’ve heard you mention this before and there’s this increase of inclusion on you know pro -life advocates. There’s a guy by the mark huck who the FBI raided his home. Now those that starts to seem like more outward persecution when the church is being you know attacked for just wanting to see the sanctity of life.

How do you firstly let me let you respond on that point. What do you think is the motivation behind that? Well they’re mad because Rovers Wade got kicked back to the States and so they’re vengeful because that’s what the world is.

And so they’re going to put the smack down on these people that are first the easiest to get the low -hanging fruit because they’re out there standing in front of an abortion clinic and they’re praying or they’re holding a sign or they’re protesting and so they’re the easiest people.

There is a law that says that you’re not allowed to do certain things within so many feet of an abortion clinic. And so you cannot be obnoxious. You can’t try to intimidate or manipulate someone, a client who’s going to have their child aborted.

So you’re not allowed to do that. It’s a law in the land of America. So they’re using that law. Now generally they would send you a letter or they might come talk to you and they may say you’ve got a court date, this is what date, but now they’re saying look, let’s send a message.

Let’s pounce on them and then let’s throw them into jail and let’s see if we could create fear and that I have a ripple effect and people will back off and then again, they feel like that they’ll be able to push their agenda and they want to abort more babies and that’s the goal.

Yeah. Now, what would you say to the, you know, the average churchgoer who is sitting in the pew and they say I don’t want that to happen to my house. I’m gonna shrink back a little bit. Yeah. I won’t attend church.

I won’t attend. I’ll watch online. Yeah, so I’ll be kind of insulated from all of that. What would you say to that believer? Well, I mean two things. First of all, walk with wisdom. The Bible says in Colossians 4 and we’re to walk with wisdom towards those who are without meaning they are outside of the faith.

So I want to have a little bit of wisdom. So the question always is this, can I get the same outcome through a different method? Alright, so don’t be stuck in your way. I mean you say hey, I feel like I got to go stand in front of that abortion clinic and pray.

All right. Well, is that the wisest thing to do? You got to think that through. I’m not here to judge anybody and I’m not here to tell people what to do. I’m just saying you need to be led of the Spirit and you need to be led by the Word of God.

and say what is the most effective and efficient way to reach the outcome of what I’m trying to achieve and then the second thing is I would say never neglect your faith and never neglect the assembling of your of your faith with God’s people because you’re a you’re commanded okay and B you need to feed your faith and that ability to practice the one and others only happens in the context of community and when we isolate and we just say we’re gonna do you know media or technology to get our faith fed then I think we limit its potential so I would say stand up be strong don’t be afraid but also be wise be cautious careful don’t be stupid you know and don’t go out there and just put yourself in a bad situation you know I mean I’m ready for the rapture but I’m not jumping in front of the bus and say run me run over me you know and so I think we have to use some wisdom Allow me to play devil’s advocate.

Absolutely. I love this if I’m you know, the believer I I stream in you know I watch hope worth having online and yeah, you know, I’ll message my friends get my encouragement And yeah, I’ll send a gift here or there.

What’s wrong with me just staying home. I don’t want that to happen that persecution Yeah, I’ll just do mine on the low, you know, I’ll be a 007 Christian. Yeah. Well your first problem is you’re a 20 something and that just get it You like all that technology and all that stuff.

But here’s the thing is that The Bible tells us that we’re called to Encourage and inspire one another Now yes, I can inspire you through a text message and I can encourage you through an email or even a Some kind of a post on social media But think about the human heart it’s designed differently and we are designed for face -to -face heart -to -heart Communication.

All right, and why don’t you try that with your spouse? Why don’t you try that with your children? See how that goes? Ultimately, what we need is that Contact that touch that sense of presence that brings about the most lasting inspiration and Blessings that come from practicing the one another’s together.

Okay. I don’t know if that helps you or not Lastly how do you you know the Bible tells us, you know, our hope is in Christ about us that You know, he he’s the victory is already won in Christ But how do I you know with that all the feelings of encroaching persecution?

How do I find that hope? How do I say, you know, I can trust in this for sure even when everything else is crumbling around us Well, I think the big thing is to keep the big perspective, you know, it’s easy to get lost in the weeds It’s easy to get caught up in our circumstances and we forget about what God is doing and see anything that God is doing whether he’s allowing it in our world, our country,

or even our life that we got to know that our God’s in charge. He’s in control. He’s sovereign. He’s got it. And so we submit to that. We accept that and then we’re going to make the best of the situation that we can and that our goal is to advance, even in our suffering, even in our persecution, advance the cause of Jesus Christ.

Amen. That’s a great place to end there. I want to thank you guys for joining us on this discussion of persecution. You can listen to us on Spotify, Apple Music, Google Music, the Open Door Church app, and you can find the video recording of this discussion on the Hope Worth Having YouTube channel.

Go ahead and like and subscribe if you want to get a little bit more context, a little bit more updates and notifications of upcoming content. Thank you again. Thank you Pastor Mike. Yes, it’s great to be here.

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